Curse

Smoke Nightvogue · Jul 01, 2015, 06:00 PM // 18:00

There have been some discussions about it recently, and I thought: perhaps, if some people expressed their interest in the matter, I could spend an hour or two and arrange my own contribution at least to theoretical part of how some of 8 vs 16 HoH matches could be won or lost the way it wouldn't look as utter PUG destruction.

But, before we begin discussing the basics, I'd like to make one point absolutely clear, that the 16 vs 8 ganks themselves are the result of a broken game mechanics, the fix for which is to be considered by the game's maintenance team in one of subsequent game updates.

I had to say that to make sure you'd not expect to always play fairly against the cheaters & manifest some kind of miracles, allowing your group to prevail upon them all the time.

Chances are so that you might be able to win about 20% of those games, supposed you're an experienced caller and have got a fully-equipped team of guildmates or non-synced r12+ friends ready to follow your instructions on TS.

And to make these things happen, you need to know some of the basic parts, in relation to both team setups & strategy to exercise, according to objectives arising on the last map.

And thus, let's look at...

The Basics

There are the things the absence of which nearly nullifies the chances to come victorious out of 16v8 gankfest.

The first one is the Panic Mesmer, who's obvious role, as you might have guessed, is to prevent spellcasting on the enemy alts. Yes, I know that in a regular 8 vs 8 match, things such as Power Block or Energy Surge represent a much stronger & reasonable choice, but... and this is the thing which many people tend to miss out: the present, year 2015 HA meta with its "fight the blue team & their yellow henchs on Hard Mode" has nothing to do in terms of similarity with team setups you'd normally want to throw out in GvG... you'd quickly understand this part if you were actually forced to fight 8 people + 7 henchs at the Flag Stand.

So not to draw it out any further, simply trust me that running Panic in 8 vs 16 is the most optimal choice.

The second essential tool in the arsenal of your build should be supplied by two Fire Eles, and that is: the same & not less number of Meteor Showers. And here, as you might see, we face exactly the same rule: a spell which was never utilized in pretty much 99.9% of the past GvG matches, becomes extremely valuable in conjunction with your Mesmer's elite. These are the KDs which, if timed right, will practically allow you to unleash almost instant & multiple wipes to your enemy's alt henchways every 1 min. 30 seconds. So basically, if you see some HA Fire Ele build without Meteor Shower on it, put it into the list of causes of versus gank failures.

The third thing, which also demonstrates a perfect synergy with the first two, is the snaring, Shockwave Ele. An excellent finisher for everything which gets close enough or have got into your team's Panic/MS combo. However, like with almost any other midliner's bar, energy management plays a very important role in it. Don't take some jumping-in skills in sacrifice of mana-replenishing accessories such as Glyph of Lesser Energy or Aura of Restoration. These truly can be considered your best friends, right after specified craft's attunement.

Another thing you'd need to take care of is self-survival of your RC Prot. And this is achieved really easy, actually: by bringing in Reversal of Fortune so that he/she could heal-up through own means in case of induced split demanded by the situation. Don't bring Channeling because of this, though: playing RoF RC with Eremite's Zeal is still way more convenient than supervising one with Channeling, as you actually don't spam RoF on targets somewhere near the central altar and would want to use it for self-heals about 70% of the time.

And the last few options are actually a little bit specific to my builds, mostly originating from the past experience of going 8 vs 16 against the syncers for about 10 months prior the implementation of suggested HA update. Honestly, I have simply tired of seeing them spamming that "the sync has won" message across the server, and something had to be done about it. Anyway, these things are: Dash on Ritualist and self-healing along with hex removal on the Derv, if there's one. The reason for this is determined by the game's flawed mechanics associated with 2 on 1 on Capture Points, where you'd need to swiftly move across the map, get rid of slowing down hexes or negative conditions and be able to kite'n'live overall. Therefore, my opinion is that if you're dealing with fighting the sync and not the actual, independent two teams, running Rt/N instead of Rt/A would be a weaker choice that might force your team to extensively rely on "Make Haste!" spam, and thus, lose one steadfast damage dealer in the offense.

So, that would be it, I guess, and the rest of advanced tactics is based on certain Halls victory conditions, where KotH would be the easiest, Capture Points the median & Relic Run the hardest to beat the 2 on 1 gank on.

King of the Hill

This is the most favorable scenario for the team running an 8 vs 16 build, as all you basically have to do is to properly unfold AoE at the center, landing it down the enemy alts by the means of synchronous MS/Panic. Getting rid of the enemy backline is your key priority, preferably beginning with their Ritualist and trying to find the right time to strip the enchantments off their Ghostly to take him down. It's also important to maintain protective weapons on your own Hero and Monks at the same time. Winning this, generally, depends on your ability to release spikes at the right time, knowing that the main, Blue team is probably down one person busy controlling the alt, meaning they'll be lacking damage to produce threatening spikes, since half of the syncers don't bother assembling on TS. Based on this, KotH is practically a piece of cake.

Capture Points

This one, when played against the two teams working together, can grant an unforgettable red-hot flavor, the 8 minutes of which will make the ordinary GvG splitting tactics look like children's games to you.

Suffice to say describing this in the details could take up to half the page's space, though I'll try to do my best to stay on track and not omit any key points. The development of events on this scenario is heavily relied on what the two enemy teams choose exactly to do, however, there are certain patterns which many of them tend to follow, and based on those, it becomes rather easy to predict their moves. As a general rule, you need to remember that your team's goal should be taking away capture points belonging to the main, Blue team. If Yellow caps something, don't engage in fight with the henchs, think of the other spots you might be able to cap. Fighting the Yellow team simply takes up your time and turns it in favor of their host (the Blue main). Therefore, if you see that at the beginning of the match the Yellow team is intending to cap your base, you simply allow them to go for it, focusing on capping the center or the Blue base along with the Yellow spawn with the Rit, the Ghostly & the Derv / or the snaring Ele. Actually, the worst scenario for the Red team would be if the Yellow team stood past the entrance to their base, not allowing anyone but the player from the Blue team to get through them, and that person have gone there alone, leaving the Ghost to the remainder of the team controlling the center, but, I didn't tell you that.

Let's just suppose our enemies aren't that smart and they have flagged the Yellow team to cap the Red base, leaving them far away & partially-useless. At that time, your team has to fight for the center, migrating to the Blue's base once the Yellow enemy henchway approached the center (and that's like absolutely predictable next move they will do). If some players on your team have got taken down, they could recapture the home base upon res, but on the global scope, it's better not to get caught by entire party wipes. So, whatever the Yellow does, always stay focused on Blue caps, as if Yellow advances, they're slowing down captures made by the syncing main too. Therefore, proceeding from the central altar, you struggle for the Blue base & the Yellow's starting point. An average sync always starts this way: they flag Yellow to the Red base & go cap the Yellow's starting point with the Ghost or two people without it, leaving their own base empty at the beginning. So once you've settled at the center in attempt to capture it, you have two options of what to do next the moment Yellow henchway also gets there. Either die, or leave the middle for the Blue base, which is a more practical decision. Whatever the Blue team does, don't allow them to control the Yellow's spawning point or your home base. Winning this is hard, no doubts, but Relics might be even more challenging than that...

Relic Run
That's where as not in any other place in the entire game, your team will have an opportunity to ensure that positioning plays a vital role in own survival and success of the task as the whole. You take the wrong positioning - you lose, as the enemy henchway will collapse on you, driving the whole team back to the home base. So what would be the right position to stand at, some of you might inquire? And the answer is: before the entrance to the stairs, that's the only place where you've got chances to proceed your own push on the syncer's main from. Plus, it's a perfect location to lure the Yellow enemy henchway into AoE, especially if you're kicking off your game from Red's starting location, as in half of the cases it'll allow you to catch the enemy alts with AoE at one of the central stairs, adjacent to the Chest's spawning point. Though, it's still the hardest objective to win on, as if you play on the Red / Yellow team and the enemy henchway has succeeded in pushing your team back, chances are high they'll also manage to entirely block the bridge space between the relic spawn & the exit from it, with Meteor Showers being the only remedy to counter it, however, the real problem is that at the same time, you're also snared by the Blue team. Anyway, the cornerstone of your strategy should be about swiftly getting rid of the enemy henchway with AoE each time it approaches the center and then directing pressure on the Blue main team, aiding your own snarer. Yet, the chances to win it are rather slim, I have to admit, until your opponent has come from PvE and the only thing he did prior to syncing HA was UWSC runs.

Yet somehow I think, this hardly will be the case. Another thing you could try is running the regular IWAY/BBway build which is rather durable against the sync in general and exceptionally strong on relics because of the Warrior's armor/insignias & the way the team gets rid of hexes/conditions with PnH. You can try bringing in the 2nd snarer with an extra Ward Against Foes also, if your team's setup allows to allocate a spot for that (could be Invoke with snares + Shockwave Ele).

Perhaps some of you will also be willing to share your own parts of advanced strategies, as I probably have missed out a few points, so a valuable addition to the foregoing would be really cool, if your experience allows you to assist the readers with that.

And on my part of drawing more or less complete picture for the discussion, below will be presented some of team setups I ran at different points of time, mostly during the summer of 2014, when I was searching for skills compositions that aren't going to sow major turmoil in the heads of not so extensively-sophisticated players. Sticking to the rule that simplicity could fairly-often produce the most effective results. In this very exact case, it was: the more AoE/shutdown - the better, which sometimes ended up with rather fearsome combinations reminding of that old, year 2008 Dark Aura glitch. Five Shockwaves can't be considered exactly the same, but was rather close.

And of course, a considerable part of the ideas originated through communicating with other veteran players, such as Mts, Muxu, Juda Palo, Shogun Cat, Jacke L Eventreur, Zurrie & a few others.

Some of the builds, such as Mindburnway appeared fairly easy to perform with, while the others required a much more serious teamwork in order to achieve the desired spike effect. Nonetheless, as there are about 10, it's no doubt you'll be able to choose something which your team would feel comfortable with. Or perhaps, we'll even have more 8 vs 16 templates posted here, if some of you will feel like revealing creations of your own.

Meanwhile, what we have is:

AoE Balanced Spike:
A build of mine which is rather difficult to run, because the spikes have to be timed right, even though they harm with Adjacent AoE. (Outdated: Its weakest point is that there's a 2 seconds cast time on Rodgort's, making the spikes fairly easy to interrupt, especially if you faced a Mesmer with rupt bot. On the other hand, the amount of AoE it does redeems its disadvantageous cast time).

Haitispike:
The origin of the following build is this article on PvXWiki dated back as far as 2010. In my opinion, the setup itself is one of the best choices a well-played guild team could get into double fame events with. It's got all the necessary components to be considered a good balanced spike build: KDs, rupts, casters control & massive AoE damage. So if you consider yourself a good caller and have got an experienced team at your disposal, running this build would be a flawless choice.

Mindburnway:
This is one of the easiest builds within my arsenal for the caller to pick targets with. You wouldn't even need to do the regular "3-2-1", as the setup allows truly rapid switching between the targets. The only two things the casters should be aware of is that spamming Mind Burn on sole targets staying out of the crowd might bring you energy troubles in the long run. Don't over-spam this spell if you see that the AoE will not hit multiple foes. And the other one is that this build is played with 3 energy sets, meaning you'll need the regular outfit and the +15 & +30 mana kits as well. Otherwise, you'll be unable to land Meteor Showers right upon their cooldown. To sum it up, if you like easy-to-manage things, that's the setup you'd want to bring.

Pumaway:
And this one is what we developed together with the leader of アuma guild, Shogun Cat. The core concept he wanted to put behind the build is that it must be really versatile on splits, and at the same time, produce significant conditions/AoE pressure. The weak part of the build is that it's got no Meteor Showers (in the new edition, it does) which makes it unable to promptly wipe-out the enemy alts, yet overall, it could be very flexible on caps, and adding one Meteor Shower doesn't seem as such a complicated issue (drop Lightning Bolt on Invoke, drag in SoC here, and run the Fire Ele with Rodgort's, Glowing Gaze, Mind Burn, Meteor Shower, GoS, Resurrection Chant, GoLE & Fire Attunement).

SF Spike:
Don't think I actually need to write a long description here, since the build itself is simply an 8 vs 16 variation of what represented a very popular fame farming setup back to the summer of 2007. The 3 healers backline is what makes it not scatter like a house of cards while pressured by the enemy alts.

Shockwave Spike:
The following is one of my favorites, as there's hardly any other elite in the entire game so suitable for the idea of wreaking havoc in mass amounts. Be it Capture Points or King of the Hill, your enemy must be completely mad to stay around those, and if they backtrack, well, this version of it has also got a ranged attack spell, just in case.

The build is very easy to run, if proper positioning on the team is upheld. And as usual, don't forget about the energy sets.

Shockwave Spike, the 2nd variation:
It arose spontaneously, when I was thinking about if there are any befitting combinations allowing utilization of Arcane Echo in PvP, and GoS+AE+Shockwave has appeared to be the one. In its essence, the build represents an even stronger AoE-smasher compared to the original edition. So if your team will feel like accomplishing the task of what's usually done with 2 Eles through the means of one, this build is what you're looking for, and what your enemies will not be pleased about encountering at KotH.

Star Burst AoE Pressure:
This is probably the easiest balanced line-up for any PUG which allows literally smash down the buttons non-stop on Fire Eles, and in comparison to the commonly-accepted version of Star Burst Ele with jumping-in skill or Dash, the presence of Eremite's Zeal (Aura of Restoration in the updated layout) within my pick will allow you to never run out of energy on the altar maps, which is the case for Fire E/A's after continuous SB/Flame Burst spamming, especially on targets located out of the crowd. So while the jumping ability is good for dealing with henchways on the starting maps, the E/D Eremite's Zeal setup has proven to be a more reliable DoT option for high-end battlegrounds where victory conditions are dependent on close-ranged combat & damage dealt to targets stationed across the altar. However, stable team communication is also vital for the success of this, as pretty much any other, build.

VaiN's Hex/Condition Pressure:
The build which revives some good-old memories of rather thrilling & successful runs to Halls I did with friends from Entire World Counts On Me [VaiN] guild by the autumn of 2007. Although, the team setup you'll see has undergone tons of changes in contrast to the original 2007 representation which consisted of skillbars arranged like that. The degen part was a little bit different, as you see, and thereafter, through the course of 2 years, it has evolved into the build shared at the bottom of this page. And it worked quite fine by the time the guys have got their r12's, but since 2010, many truly-skilled HA players have left, and eventually, the opposing 3rd party at the last map has been replaced with... not so self-confident people.

And this sort of reflected on inevitable changes to the 5 years old build, aiding it of being able to get rid of the enemy alts fast enough. And while it's an obvious fact that the old, dual SH version of it ran prior Elementalists received an update used to be stronger, this build still remains one of my personal favorites for HA play, as it truly is an oldschool setup of Nightfall times. Playing it is more complicated than the rest of what I posted as you aren't given an additional healer, forcing the Ranger to go on splits alone during Halls Capture Points, leaving the Ghostly to the main team. Another difficulty is that this build needs about 2 minutes prior it starts showing its actual strength, when the enemies run out of energy, your Fertile Season drops & EoE backfires on them. In other words, it implies combat between the actual 3 teams. Not that it can't take care of Blue's Yellow henchway fast enough, but still, dealing with both teams at the same time if they're spread out might be problematic. But in the end, it's all about fun, right?

And EoE might bring it to all of the attending parties, so if I had a wish of going on my own run during this event, that build, despite all complexity around it, would have definitely been my choice.

And finally, Zurrie's Balanced:
Although Zurrie never expressed much interest in the events taking place at HA over the last year and is purely a GvG player, we still have had one interesting conversation where he was kind enough to share his insights on how some of the GvG drafts could be applied to it. And, truthfully speaking, I think the obtained result has turned into the most damage-absorbing balanced HA build made in the past few years. Three out of five offensive characters on it have got self-defensive stances, which allows them to neglect pressure incoming from the syncers' alts team for about 10 seconds, and permits to exclusively focus on taking down the Blue team's members in return (achieved via "Stand Your Ground!" chain in the newest edition). During our discussion, Zuranthium expressly stressed on the fact that dead opposing party's members cannot run relics, protect their Ghostly, and so on, thus, the thing your team needs to be focused on is getting rid of the players on the Blue main, wasting no crucial supportive spells on the Yellow henchs until the opportunity presents a chance to take them down right after the minutely resurrections. The key concept behind the build is that you're able to produce constant spiking pressure on the enemy mid & backline with Mind Burn & two Invokes. Supported by 3 healers backline, you're basically getting a universal balanced build with tons of defense on it, being able to send up to 5 characters to attack the enemies on splits. In fact, the Rt/A build which I'm utilizing in about half of all presented layouts, was his idea. The cunning part of this build is that unlike the regular, Wiki-proposed Rits, it has got +6 energy regeneration upon elite use, which makes it significantly less-dependent on Life spirit, to the extent that in Spike vs Spike matches, the spirit placement part can be entirely discarded in order to focus on maintaining weapons on mid/backliners to protect them.

And since my long voyage through the state of things is about to form a full circle with return into the harbor near Great Temple of Balthazar, kudos to all versed GvG fellows for the valuable input they have offered, whilst up to the last few weeks, I had absolutely no plans regarding putting up some kind of extended 8 vs 16 HA article at all. I'll be glad if the presented outlook will be considered useful by some of you, and who knows, perhaps there'll also be some who might get inspired by it to the point we'll have the chance to come across each other within the ID1 outpost on the next double fame event.

P.S. Here's the link to paw·ned² builds file, since the forum returns an error while trying to attach a ZIP which exceeds the 97.7 KB file size.

makosi · Jul 01, 2015, 09:32 PM // 21:32

I commend the OP for taking the time and effort to compile this but I'm going off on a tangent a bit:

The mechanics of the 3-way maps are fine. It's the permissiveness of the devs that is the problem. They're well aware and don't even need logs to verify it because of observer mode.

Ban them and make an example of them. It's a courtesy.

Ok, so it's clear they don't give a rat's ass about cheating anymore. Great. Then reinstate the /resign feature so they gank victims can move on with life rather than being forced to stay in an impossible match (if not using a custom-made anti-hero gank build as per OP). Alternatively, remove dishonor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smoke Nightvogue

...the fix for which is to be considered by the game's maintenance team in one of the subsequent game updates.

Like the daily fame, strongbox and Zaishen key cap I'm willing to bet the patch will be a lazy blanket change adversely affecting everybody.

Smoke Nightvogue · Jul 01, 2015, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Banning anyone at this stage of the game would make no sense, as from the top of my head, I could name about 10 cases where maxed HA titles have been achieved through syncing... it's simply not worth wasting ArenaNet's valuable time on dealing with each cheater separately. Although, it's just a private opinion, as usual.

*lemming* · Jul 02, 2015, 02:01 AM // 02:01

I think we're better off staying on topic.

The reasoning behind the build decisions in the basics section sound reasonable enough, but I'm wondering how much of this you've actually put into implementation - your wording suggests that a whole lot of this is conjecture.

Motoko · Jul 03, 2015, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Too many "if's" and reliance on stupid opponents.

Smoke Nightvogue · Jul 07, 2015, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Agreed, though the only reduction to the number of "if's", as I'm able to envision it personally, lies within creating a certain build with even greater Meteor Showers compound, allowing to wipe out the Yellow team even more often while retaining decent damage. There hardly are any other options which would allow to increase the winning chances, at least that's what I'm thinking after having spent 350+ 8 vs 16 matches. It's just so that the winning percentage will always reside within 20%, and it would have been assuredly overconfident if I stated otherwise.

Missing HB · Jul 30, 2015, 07:46 PM // 19:46

I did read everything, but thats a lot of work for nothing..
I did beat several times syncers in halls, and what happens is that they are either stopping, either going to sync gvg or codex. All this for 2 fame points, and then i get no opponents.. Could you imagine motivating 7 players for this ?

Restrictions came, henchs came, but way too late, people were asking about it when syncing appeared about 4 years ago. I remember arguing about it idk how many times..

shadows of hob · Nov 05, 2015, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Why isn't anything done against this? Literally every threeway, let it be halls or courtyard is 2vs1 because of sync teams.

There are actually some people who seem to make a sport of it. For example Nemesis Hun One, Nemesis Hun Two, Nemesis Hunt Three, etc etc. I have ever seen Nemesis Hun Eight. That means that they sent in like 8 alt accounts just to get a 16vs8. And don't get me even started about that Friday the 13th guild with their 30+ alts.

I I Kisura I I · Nov 05, 2015, 04:21 PM // 16:21

30+ alts, cute

Experts · Nov 07, 2015, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by I I Kisura I I

30+ alts, cute

more like 400++

Coast · Nov 09, 2015, 09:49 PM // 21:49

and yet they still suck at the game

shadows of hob · Nov 12, 2015, 03:57 PM // 15:57

I have to say 13th are taking this entire sync thing to the next level. Not only are they using an insane amount of gank/instant leave alts, but they are also using a mesmer rupt bot on all of their sync teams.

cantalus · Nov 13, 2015, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

and yet they still suck at the game

amazing isn't it, and if you talk to them, they think they're awesome.

saw KvZ members syncing tonight, so depressing.

Missing HB · Dec 02, 2015, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Obviously they cant get better since they arent fighting any real opponent..
There were a few parties left months ago, but there is no point wasting time for those.. 1 win against bots, 1 win 1v1 in halls against 5 eles and then no opponent..

What i particularly dislike is the fact that you cant do anything with these henchmen against full eles farming teams, except running yourself aoe, but in that case you cannot win halls..

Zephyr of Light · Dec 08, 2015, 12:15 PM // 12:15

There is a solution to this "nerfed" ages ago.

Bring back heroes too HA, run Z-Way, watch the drama unfold.
No taste like crocodile tears from people saying "remove tease mesmers from HA".

*lemming* · Dec 08, 2015, 09:25 PM // 21:25

How would that be a solution? It'd just make the team of 16 even harder to fluke out a win against.

Zephyr of Light · Dec 08, 2015, 10:36 PM // 22:36

There is no solution if Anet wont be involved any further in their original game to deal with the reality of people syncing not only for their ranks, but as mentioned before also for real life financial benefits.
(Providing Zkeys / Exchanged Zkeys to Ectos/Armbraces to websites that offer ingame currency for cold hard cash)

Which I assume is strictly against their policy that they dont even enforce, its like they just turn the other cheek to their game and the situation.

The only solution perhaps would be changing formats (from 3, to 2), so the opposite team (If they are 8/8 people) too have a chance against OP team. (Risk of opposing yourself with an alt account is always a real chance)

Removing henchman entirely from the bracket.

Adding a minimum player capacity before being able too que. (4/8. Or 6/8)

Removing the HoH chest entirely so there is no real (financial) benefit in farming the place over and over till you get that Req 9 Crystalline, Unded Ghoslty Hero, Unded Rift Warden, and/or Zkeys.

Or, removing the most high end loot from the HoH chest and place those rewards in other sources. (Seasonal reward items like Ghoulish Grab Bags / Wintersday Grab Bags, with the same % of said item to drop.)

Edit : Once (real) money becomes the objective they will do anything to get the bigger slice of the pie.
Cheating, Botting, Syncing, Toolboxing, it all comes into play.
The only way to neutralize syncing and people to actually "play" that bracket, is removing their goal and their need too cheat for it.

Smoke Nightvogue · Dec 09, 2015, 05:23 AM // 05:23

4/8 is the way to make the whole area entirely-inactive once-again. The easiest fix for what you've written is simply locking the initial Blue's spawning point & relocating it to the base of the excluded Yellow team.

Although it appears that the release of Heart of Thorns has greatly postponed the possibility of such patch being introduced.

makosi · Dec 12, 2015, 07:57 PM // 19:57

There is no support whatsoever so nothing will change. There are gold-selling spam bots in Kamadan, bots in JQ and all other PvP arenas are synch-fests. It's a free-for-all with no repercussions.

The only enjoyment left is watching the synchers display their titles in Kamadan then you switch to observer mode and see them playing versus a real team and being steamrolled.

Zephyr of Light · Dec 14, 2015, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

There is no support whatsoever so nothing will change. There are gold-selling spam bots in Kamadan, bots in JQ and all other PvP arenas are synch-fests. It's a free-for-all with no repercussions.

Sadly this is entirely true, not only Heroes Ascent, Random Arenas and Codex Arena's are affected by this, but also Guild versus Guild.

The win-trade game is strong lately.

-

People have no shame in this game, its just absurd.